Trash Mutant Interviews (TMI): Sage Francis
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TRASH MUTANT: This year marked the 10th anniversary of your first studio album, “Personal Journals”. While you were already a big name in underground rap before this album dropped, I think it’s safe to say it really put you on the map. It was highly acclaimed, influential, and remains one of the most interesting records in hip-hop from that period. How do you look back on it today? SAGE FRANCIS: Since it's the 10th year anniversary, I've been reflecting back on that period quite a bit. In one sense, it feels like 10 years isn't a very long time. The older I get the more I realize how fast the years slip by. In another sense, considering how much has happened with technology and in music over the past 10 years, it seems like all of that stuff happened lifetimes ago. One thing is for sure, my life has been a chaotic blur since 1999. But, yeah, by the time Personal Journals dropped I already had a strong buzz going due to the mixtape releases and my battle victories. I was also quick to recognize how important the internet was for independent musicians, so I utilized it as much as possible. But it wasn't until Personal Journals dropped that I had a label, publicists, promoters, booking agents and distribution company who could all run with the momentum that was already set into motion. It was a time when I could walk into a store, pick up a variety of magazines, and catch my name along with the names of my friends every time I gave 'em a flip through. That, along with many other things, is something I miss from what is essentially a foregone era. The early 2000's was definitely a great time for our scene. We were a group of talented artists who had all but been ignored right up until then. And, thanks to the wild west nature of the internet, along with its influence in all who were active on it, our music became widely available and impossible to ignore. "What Doesn't Kill Hip-Hop Only Makes It Stranger" is the slogan appearing on various Strange Famous gear. Obviously, it's a very cool and catchy way to promote the label, but do you think it's a true statement for hip-hop in general now? How so? One of the most important lessons I learned from hip-hop early on is that you need to be original. Being original often means going against the norm. If you're brave enough to go against the norm (despite the obvious risk), even if it's done well, people often blow it off and label it "strange." My philosophy is to avoid sticking to the tried-and-true method of doing/saying things. Learn the fundamentals of your craft and then do your best to contribute something unique to it rather than piling on with more of the same. Piling on with more of the same is what can actually kill any genre or artform. A lot of things that are now considered normal were once "strange" to most people. And then people felt compelled to fall in line until what once was a unique sound became cheap and tired. So, yeah, as scared as people get when they hear something different, and as compelled as they are to say that it's "killing" anything, the truth is that the "strange" stuff is what keeps ANY art form thriving. Hence the "What Doesn't Kill Hip-Hop Only Makes It Stranger" slogan. From the album "A Healthy Distrust" (2005)
Since your last album, 2010's "Li(f)e", you did some guest verses on songs by other rappers, but other than that you've been mostly silent. This is the longest break between Sage Francis records to date. I realize running a label is a full-time job, though. Not too long ago El-P had to step down as Def Jux's label boss in order to focus on his music career again. I'm knocking on wood here, but do you have any worries that being a president of a record label and a recording artist at the same time may prove hard to pull off, eventually? I think it's beyond difficult, but it's what I signed up for. My main problem is that I'm reluctant to bring more people into the fold. And for good reason. I don't care to operate with people I don't completely trust. I don't care to give opportunities to people who take opportunity for granted. I've learned the hard way time and time again. So, yeah, SFR keeps a small staff, which essentially means that we're all juggling a million things at once. I understand that this is not the best way to run a company, making as much happen with as little as possible is how I've always operated. And, yeah, it affects my own artistic output. No doubt about it. Every single day I find myself wishing that I didn't have so many responsibilities holding me back from just doing what I truly love. What I truly love is creating art…writing and recording. Yet, maintaining the business side of things (which unfortunately occupies most of my day) is important so that I never have to work for someone else's means. Not only am I trying to sustain my own career, but I'm doing my best to look out for the livelihood of other artists and people in the company I care about. The older I get, the more responsibilities I have plopped onto my desk. When you're involved in an industry that creates product that's so easy to steal, you find yourself constantly trying to think of ways to make your product as special as possible to ensure that it sells. Not only that, but we're constantly trying to figure out how to access our fans via social networks while attaining more fans (which seems to change every couple years. And then, after all of that, we have to deal with the people who question our integrity because we try to sell anything at all.) That's the kind of stuff that makes me want to throw my hands up and say, "OK, fuck y'all. Maybe I'll just stay in my cave for another year and try to figure out whether I want to still do this or not." Well, I've been in my cave for a couple years now. Almost 3. And I do still want to do it. But I also want to punch a lot of people in the face. Going back on the road could turn that into a win/win situation! Speaking of running the label: how much say do you have on what SFR artists put on the albums you guys release? Do you exercise any creative control over the material submitted by the rappers you signed? Are there ever any situations when you go like “Listen, I don’t really think this should go on the album” or something like that, or do you have absolute trust in the artists you sign to the point that you never intervene in how the finished album will be at all? I do my best to help our artists craft the best album possible. I am unrelenting with my opinions and, as artists are sensitive by nature, I do my best to stay out of hurtful territory. I wouldn't work with an artist unless I believed they had something truly special to offer so I hope that's a general understanding. I'm also a master of the caveat. A lot of artists aren't aware of the innumerable potential pitfalls I've encountered on all ends of business, so sometimes I have the unfortunate task of being the bearer of bad news when they want to do something one way and I suggest that it might be better to do it a different way. At the end of the day, what they say goes. As long as it's not the kind of thing that entails us spending more money than I know we can make back (even though I have knowingly allowed that to happen in certain instances.) And it's never without a lot of my yapping in their ear. Fuck. Haha. I'm so neurotic. As long as the artists understand that, and they know that I always have their best interest in mind, all is well. Each of your albums is very different, but "Li(f)e" was the biggest stylistic departure from your earlier records. Gone were the hip-hop beats, in came the instruments and a backing band full of indie rock talent. What can we expect from the next Sage Francis record, and most importantly, when can we expect it? I've been writing and recording a lot of material. My initial impulse was to just rap as hard as possible on the hardest beats I've been able to attain. Especially since LI(F)E was pretty much the opposite of that. But, as per usual, I often find myself slipping into melancholic territory. 2010 was a tough year. 2012 has been equally has hard. Whatever songs I end up with for the next album, I want to make sure they work in conjunction with each other. The longer I wait to release the new material the more tricky that becomes due to my mood swinging all over the place. One thing I can say for sure is that the writing will make people think, laugh, and/or cry. As long as they listen to the inner voice the way I listen to the inner voice. Depends on what drugs they are or aren't using at the time. On your 2005 dvd "Life is Easy" there's this segment called "A Day in the Life", where a cameraman follows you around town as you go about your business. It's a great (and funny) insight into the early, DIY stages of running the label on a budget and managing your career. How are things different now? What does a day in the life of Sage Francis look like in 2012? It's not all that much different really. But I guess in 2012 it's more computer using, cat loving, floor sweeping, order giving, bill paying, grief taking, threat sending, social networking, sleep snoring, and fat body living. Let's talk about Epic Beard Men. That's the name under which you and B.Dolan released the single "2Bad". Now I know you guys have been rocking the beard for a long, long time now (frankly, it seems to be a popular look among the majority of the Strange Famous Records artists), but it also seems like beards are becoming a big thing among rappers in general, lately. Which hip-hop artists do you think are on top of their beard game right now? Who, outside of the SFR crew, has the best beard in rap? I'm not sure if I can make myself give a flying fuck about anyone's beard outside of the SFR realm. Haha. Fuck their beards. I'll hate crime their beards. Actually, there are a few people we operate with who get a pass (maybe), but nearly everyone gets shunned. When the Epic Beard Men hit the scene even Matisyahu was like, "Oh shit…let me cut this stupid shit off of my face before I completely expose myself as the horrible fraud that I am." Pffff. Are the Epic Beard Men here to stay or was it just a name used for one song? Are there more songs recorded under the EBM banner, or some plans for a record? Although we didn't use the Epic Beard Men moniker, I consider "House of Bees" to be the first EBM track. B. Dolan and I have done other songs, but "House of Bees" and "2Bad" are the two songs that exhibit the proper Epic Beard Men style. Fun, nasty & hard. Primed for some nice back-and-forth vocal action on stage. We intend on putting together an official EBM project but our lives are going to need to slow down before we can really make that happen. I hope to have something official before the end of 2013, but, considering how fast time travels, early 2014 might be a better bet. From B. Dolan's "House of Bees Vol. 2" (2012)
You've been rapping since you were a small kid. Some of those earliest recordings got incorporated into your songs, and whenever some rhymes from those childhood sessions appear, they are credited to "Lil' Sage". You mentioned in interviews that before you were called "Sage Francis" it was just "Sage", and you only added your last name to it later on. Was “Sage" your first rap name or did you go by some other name when you were writing your earliest rhymes? I went through a myriad of awful and humorous names before I eventually landed on Sage Francis (which is also awful and humorous in its own way.) In my earliest recordings I went by the name of Ace. I was 8 years old and Ace was the coolest possible name an 8 year old could muster. Then, around the age of 11, I changed it to Bad Heart (long story.) Then it was D-RIP (this began my fascination with death and the letter….D?) Then it was Hostyle (which was kind of cool but not really when you break it down to Hoe Style.) Then it was Hostyle da Q.T. W.U.N.D.U.H. (Don't even ask me what the hell the acronym stood for.) Then it was Sage. I chose that because the letters looked cool in graf style. And then, eventually, I tacked "Francis" onto my name as that's a family name and I felt it was necessary to even out the cool with the uncool. It's kind of unfortunate that people outside of the entertainment industry don't get the chance to rename themselves. I don't think it's good for people to live their whole life under the name or label that they were born under. Native Americans believe that name changes can be physically and psychologically healing. Lil' Sage historically sets it off in the intro to the first song on "Personal Journals"
On 2009’s “Sick of Wasting” there’s this track called “Strange Fame”, which you produced and it came out really well. Is producing your beats yourself something you’ve been getting into since then? Are there any more beats by Sage on the horizon? I actually produce a lot (if not all) of my own music in the traditional sense of the music word. In hip-hop, when someone says they're a producer, it usually means that they make the beats. On "Strange Fame" I handled every aspect of the production, including the beat, but that's no great feat as it was mainly a one-track-jack of a David Bowie song. But, yes, I will be doing more production in the future. In the traditional sense and in the hip-hop sense. On that same record there’s a track called “I Trusted You”, sampling the song of the same name by Andy Kaufman. That isn’t the first time you referenced Kaufman in your music. There’s also the song “Andy Kaufman” on one of your older “Sick of...” mixtapes, exploring the scenario of a faked funeral. Big fan of Kaufman here, so I was wondering in what ways (if any) do you find him an inspiration for your music career? What was great about Andy Kaufman is how he did what he did without a wink and a nod. I hate when someone panders to an audience by breaking out of character, even if it's just for a split second, just so they can go on pretending that they're getting over on people. If you're going to get over on people and put them on (the way you truly want to), then do it without the safety net. You're definitely an emcee who put a lot of hard work into getting to the place you're at right now. You've been rapping for years, making a name for yourself based on your skills alone, releasing plenty of quality albums and mixtapes and, if that's not enough, running your own, successful independent label. It all seems to be working out great and it's impossible not to respect that, especially in this day and age. The question is: where do you go from here? Is there some next big goal that you keep your eyes on? I exceeded my original goals long ago. The natural impulse is to go "bigger and better." The next big goal is to figure out what "bigger and better" means to me and to make sure it's not what's expected and/or required from the people who I never intended to benefit from my efforts in the first place. “If you can wait and not be tired of waiting, or being lied about, don't deal in lies. Or being hated, don't give way to hating, and yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise.” - Rudyard Kipling Any final words to the fans, shoutouts, plugs or anything of the like? Big shout out to all of the artists represented at http://StrangeFamousRecords.com Big shout out to all the fans who have supported us and helped our messages spread. Big shout out to the people who are people enough to treat all people the way all people deserve to be treated. Lastly, least importantly, my personal blog is at http://SageFrancis.net My social networks (at the moment) are: FACEBOOK: http://Facebook.com/SageFrancis TWITTER: http://Twitter.com/SageFrancis Thanks for asking good questions! Thank you for the interview! __________________________
Last but not least, a heads up: if you liked what you heard in the videos and links sprinkled throughout this interview and you're planning to grab an album or two, make sure to visit the Strange Famous store and get it from there. Signed copies, exclusives, fast and reliable service, and all kinds of bonus goods thrown in for good measure. Trust us, we know these things. 
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